Discussion:
Java on the BSD Desktop?
(too old to reply)
Tom Grove
2007-05-29 01:50:49 UTC
Permalink
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.

Python started me on a path of cross platform coding and I found that
java also makes this task quite simple. Along with it's nice feature
set and significant speed improvements since 1.5 I am starting to see it
as a great language for most everything. Is it just me or does BSD and
java make sense? Basically, before I get started writing a program that
I hope is used by more than me does it make more sense to write this
program and future programs in java or gtk/python/perl/c/whatever?

-Tom
Andrea Venturoli
2007-05-29 10:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
I personally think Java should be restricted to where
write-once-run-everywhere is really needed.
If I understand it correctly, you are in this case writing something
that will only work on one platform, so I think it would be better to
stick to that platform natively.

Just my two Eurocents.

bye
av.
n j
2007-05-29 10:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
For what it's worth, I think Java should be far more present in the
FreeBSD at least as far as desktop is concerned and it's a good
alternative to Qt/Tk/Gtk for GUI applications. Java is a fine serious
programming language whose strongest selling point a long time ago
ceased to be "write once, run anywhere".

Just my .02,
--
Nino
Christian Walther
2007-05-29 12:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by n j
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
For what it's worth, I think Java should be far more present in the
FreeBSD at least as far as desktop is concerned and it's a good
alternative to Qt/Tk/Gtk for GUI applications. Java is a fine serious
programming language whose strongest selling point a long time ago
ceased to be "write once, run anywhere".
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)

So if one wants to write a piece of software in a certain programming
language: why not? Maybe there really is a user base for such an
application.
Personally I never would install such a software title. I think Java
is dead slow and needs too much resources to perform a specific tasks,
especially when you compare it to a GTK/Qt based application.
I've seen many software titles that just work on one plattform - the
"write once, run anywhere" market speech has never been done properly.
This might be due to way most Java programmers seem to develop their
applications: They believe that Java takes care of all tasks they
dislike from other languages, such as C. Properly allocating or
freeing memory, for example. (Especially when it's a bean used in a
Tomcat environment.)
I've never seen a complex java application that was usable on
different platforms. This includes stuff from IBM, EMC, Sun, BMC and
other big players. I know because I ask all the time. Me and my
collegues are using Suns "Sunray" thin clients for daily work...

Oh yes, and Java can't be installed without downloading the archive
manually, because I have to agree to a license.

I won't say that Java doesn't have it's uses - but as long as there's
an alternative use this.
Zbigniew Szalbot
2007-05-29 12:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Hello,
Post by Christian Walther
I've never seen a complex java application that was usable on
different platforms. This includes stuff from IBM, EMC, Sun, BMC and
other big players. I know because I ask all the time. Me and my
collegues are using Suns "Sunray" thin clients for daily work...
Not only have I seen such but also use it on a day-to-day basis. If
written well, works like a charm. Rock solid and dependable and for big
tasks. Oh yes - it is a custom application, nothing from the ports.

Warm regards,
--
Zbigniew Szalbot
Albert Shih
2007-05-29 12:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Le 29/05/2007 à 14:04:41+0200, Christian Walther a écrit
Post by Christian Walther
Post by n j
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
For what it's worth, I think Java should be far more present in the
FreeBSD at least as far as desktop is concerned and it's a good
alternative to Qt/Tk/Gtk for GUI applications. Java is a fine serious
programming language whose strongest selling point a long time ago
ceased to be "write once, run anywhere".
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
;-)
Post by Christian Walther
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)
;-)
Post by Christian Walther
Personally I never would install such a software title. I think Java
is dead slow and needs too much resources to perform a specific tasks,
Personnally I'm not a developper, I never write a software (more complex thant
«hello_world»). I'm sys-admin and I never see a GUI Java software run
correctly on all OS. Many commercial software have a GUI java installer, I
don't understand this thing. Because It really suck....To do just something
like «tar» and «chmod» we don't need a big thing like Java.

But on server side, event I don't like theem, the software like
Jakarta-Tomcat work fine. There need lots of lots of memory but they work.

IMHO if you write a gui frontend to FreeBSD I don't see the advantage to
use Java (For install jdk14/15 from source you need
linux/sun-jdk/lot_lot_of_memory). You can use something like python if you
want objet-programming. Or maybe Ruby.


Regards.



--
Albert SHIH
Observatoire de Paris Meudon
SIO batiment 15
Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26
Heure local/Local time:
Mar 29 mai 2007 14:26:00 CEST
Andrea Venturoli
2007-05-29 12:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Walther
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)
Well, yes. That's why I didn't answer any more. We are talking opinions
and everyone has his own. And we are going OT.
Post by Christian Walther
So if one wants to write a piece of software in a certain programming
language: why not? Maybe there really is a user base for such an
application.
Personally I never would install such a software title.
I think you couldn't have stated this better :-)


bye
av.
Ghirai
2007-05-29 11:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Hello n,
Post by n j
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
For what it's worth, I think Java should be far more present in the
FreeBSD at least as far as desktop is concerned and it's a good
alternative to Qt/Tk/Gtk for GUI applications. Java is a fine serious
programming language whose strongest selling point a long time ago
ceased to be "write once, run anywhere".
Just my .02,
I would say Python would be more suitable (smaller, faster), plus it's
installed by default on quite a few *nix OS.
--
Best regards,
Ghirai.
Thanos Rizoulis
2007-05-29 12:29:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ghirai
I would say Python would be more suitable (smaller, faster), plus it's
installed by default on quite a few *nix OS.
I would say, use any language you guys want, but I would like the final
product to be a console-only app, thank you :)
--
RTFM and STFW before anything bad happens
_________________________________________
Thanos Rizoulis
Electronic Computing Systems Engineer
Larissa, Greece
FreeBSD/PCBSD user
Chad Perrin
2007-05-29 19:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by n j
Post by Tom Grove
I am wanting to write a gui frontend to pkg_cutleaves. I see that it is
just a simple perl script so, it would be quite simple to just put a gtk
frontend on it and call it a day. However, I am starting to write a
good amount of code in java and was wondering what others think about
java as the de-facto gui standard on the BSD desktop.
For what it's worth, I think Java should be far more present in the
FreeBSD at least as far as desktop is concerned and it's a good
alternative to Qt/Tk/Gtk for GUI applications. Java is a fine serious
programming language whose strongest selling point a long time ago
ceased to be "write once, run anywhere".
I might agree with the idea that Java should be more common on FreeBSD
if getting Java apps working on FreeBSD weren't so much like putting my
hand into a meat grinder. Dealing with Sun's license agreement nonsense
over and over again every time software needs to be updated is not on my
list of fun things to do. I, personally, would react with horror to the
idea that Java is a "de facto GUI standard" for the BSD desktop.

You're right about Java's strongest selling point no longer being its
portability. Since Java has proven that "write once, run anywhere" is
in fact somewhat inaccurate, we have discovered that the biggest reason
for its use (other than its middle-management-friendliness) is probably
related to the way it optimizes execution over extremely long runs so
that effectively perpetual runtimes become more efficient. Of course,
that has nothing to do with desktop GUI application development, and
everything to do with "mission critical" server use.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Rudy Giuliani: "You have free speech so I can be heard."
n j
2007-05-30 10:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Walther
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)
The main characteristic of a flame war is to disparage other people's
arguments while maintaining that your arguments are the best, no?
That's why I'm not going to try and talk anyone out of their poison
:-), be it C, Python, Perl or C#/Mono.

Rather, I would like to continue a constructive discussion by speaking
from a personal experience. I apologize in advance if this is OT even
though it is FreeBSD-related and this list does see a lot of
shell/perl/... questions, so I don't see why a Java question should be
illegitimate.

First off, in my company we had a Java app (simple app, working with
database and e-mails) written for Windows. And then, there came
company decision to make Linux the default desktop solution. Java app
worked like a charm with no changes whatsoever.

Second, I'm running a custom-written Java server app on a FreeBSD
server for over half a year in production plus many months before that
in development. It works rock solid on Diablo JDK. Of course, we also
have a GUI desktop app that connects to this server that works on both
Windows and Ubuntu.

I completely agree that Sun's licence is a hassle. Fortunately, in a
year or two, we're going to have an open source Java platform meaning
there will be no hassle with manual download while installing JRE/JDK.
Combined with the great API, object-oriented nature of the language,
free IDE for serious development (Eclipse and specifically Netbeans
with a very capable Swing GUI visual editor) - this combination
strikes me as something only Microsoft can compete with.

Another .02,
--
Nino
Vladimir Tsvetkov
2007-05-30 15:10:05 UTC
Permalink
When we talk about portability of User Interface applications with rich
interactivity we must also put into disscusion Adobe Flash and Adobe Flex
applications.
Adobe is working on its Apollo platform (huge part of it is open source -
http://www.podtech.net/home/2827/the-architecture-of-flash), which should
bring RIA into the desktop as a front end technology and leave to us the
choice among the diverse flavours of back end technologies.
To my oppinion Java is more suitable for back end solutions. The level of
interractivity of Java GUI apps is around the standard for the most wide
spread applications, but it is still way to far from being competitive to
the richness in human-computer interaction, that we can design and use with
Flash/Flex apps.
I would like to see a native FreeBSD Flash player.
This is the main reason I'm getting into this disscussion.
There is a Flash player for the Macs and for the Linuxes, we need also a
native Flash player.
Best Regards,
Vladimir Tsvetkov,
http://www.gugga.com/
Post by n j
Post by Christian Walther
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)
The main characteristic of a flame war is to disparage other people's
arguments while maintaining that your arguments are the best, no?
That's why I'm not going to try and talk anyone out of their poison
:-), be it C, Python, Perl or C#/Mono.
Rather, I would like to continue a constructive discussion by speaking
from a personal experience. I apologize in advance if this is OT even
though it is FreeBSD-related and this list does see a lot of
shell/perl/... questions, so I don't see why a Java question should be
illegitimate.
First off, in my company we had a Java app (simple app, working with
database and e-mails) written for Windows. And then, there came
company decision to make Linux the default desktop solution. Java app
worked like a charm with no changes whatsoever.
Second, I'm running a custom-written Java server app on a FreeBSD
server for over half a year in production plus many months before that
in development. It works rock solid on Diablo JDK. Of course, we also
have a GUI desktop app that connects to this server that works on both
Windows and Ubuntu.
I completely agree that Sun's licence is a hassle. Fortunately, in a
year or two, we're going to have an open source Java platform meaning
there will be no hassle with manual download while installing JRE/JDK.
Combined with the great API, object-oriented nature of the language,
free IDE for serious development (Eclipse and specifically Netbeans
with a very capable Swing GUI visual editor) - this combination
strikes me as something only Microsoft can compete with.
Another .02,
--
Nino
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i***@gmail.com
2007-06-01 07:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by n j
Post by Christian Walther
I guess if everyone here on this list gives his/her two cents to this
topic we're having a nice java advocacy flame war. ;-)
The main characteristic of a flame war is to disparage other people's
arguments while maintaining that your arguments are the best, no?
That's why I'm not going to try and talk anyone out of their poison
:-), be it C, Python, Perl or C#/Mono.
That's the beauty of straddling the pale
'twix open source and "Evil". Adoption
notwithstanding . . .
Post by n j
Rather, I would like to continue a constructive discussion by speaking
from a personal experience. I apologize in advance if this is OT even
though it is FreeBSD-related and this list does see a lot of
shell/perl/... questions, so I don't see why a Java question should be
illegitimate.
Any specific toolkit (recalling that the zeroeth
post was IRT a GUI [wrapper|front-end] to an
extant tool), be it GTK, athena, QT, java, FLTK,
whatever, will naturally exclude those of us who
shudder at the thought of $THAT_GRAPHICAL_THING
but (and given that this is a survey of exactly one
person at a BAC of around 0.110) the broadest
installed base on FreeBSD is probably GTK2.
Java is easily an order of magnitude difficulter
to download, compile, install, and run than almost
anything else. Again: adoption v. wot-I-fnordin'-want!
--
--
Norberto Meijome
2007-06-04 01:49:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 30 May 2007 12:00:53 +0200
Post by n j
I completely agree that Sun's licence is a hassle. Fortunately, in a
year or two, we're going to have an open source Java platform meaning
there will be no hassle with manual download while installing JRE/JDK.
Combined with the great API, object-oriented nature of the language,
free IDE for serious development (Eclipse and specifically Netbeans
with a very capable Swing GUI visual editor) - this combination
strikes me as something only Microsoft can compete with.
yeah, agreed - jdk is a hassle first time, but then it just chugs along.
Eclipse is quite good to work with - I've just found it easier / better? to
upgrade/install eclipse plugins via it's own install mechanism (help menu i
think) rather than ports (lots missing / old). The fact that all those plugins
work just fine shows that Java **is** a good solution for **my** desktop ;).

anyway, once JRE installed, all kinds of good apps are available, so the
initial hassle is worth it, IMHO.

anyway, my 0.02...

_________________________
{Beto|Norberto|Numard} Meijome

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it. But that it is too low... and we reach it."
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